The Three Ways To Prevent Pregnancy, Or: Catholicism: What’s Up With That?
So my friend is getting married in the Catholic church, and, as part of the activities you have to complete in order to do so, she had to go to a natural family planning class. If you don’t live in the Catholic Capitol of the US, like I do, you might not know that NFP is like the Catholic version of birth control. You can google it if you want more details.
ANYWAY, apparently the class at this particular parish is led by a nice married couple who asked the class what were the three ways a couple could avoid conception. According to the people teaching the class on the sexin’, those methods are:
- Abstinence (no surprise here)
- Hysterectomy
- Vasectomy
Whaaaaa? What about our good friends Oral and Anal? Or Mutual Masturbation? Are those tools of the Devil Gays? I mean, I get that the church is against contraception because they want to keep their legion strong or whatever, but two of the three options are INVASIVE SURGERIES. It’s like they’re trying to scare you into procreating.
My friend claimed the whole time she just wanted to yell “BUTT SEX” but she thought that maybe that might draw attention to the fact that her fiance was slumped over in boredom during the whole class and then they might not be able to get married in the church.
This got me thinking about Catholicism. I am not Catholic. My husband is a “recovering” Catholic. Pretty much almost all my friends, for the most part, were raised Catholic and are in varying stages of current practice, whether that be deeply spiritual or culturally obligated. Because at least half of the weddings we go to are Catholic, I’m fairly familiar with the requirements to get married in the Church as so many of our friends have fulfilled them. And pretty much all of them have either:
- Agreed that the natural family planning sessions spread misinformation about sexual health.
- Lied copiously on the questionnaires they must complete, usually regarding premarital sex or cohabitation.
- Admitted that they were only doing it “for our parents”.
So my question is this: why would rational, non-practicing, sexually-active adults choose to go through all the bullshit? I mean, most of my friends going through these classes never go to church. Ever. And they’re probably admitted secular humanists, truth be told. Then again, people’s spirituality is quite private, and I would never assume that a friend thought one thing or another unless they specifically told me, so maybe I’m completely reading the situation wrong, but I don’t think I’m that far off in regards to many people I know.
I don’t mean this as an affront to anyone’s faith, and I’m truly not judging those who go through this process or any other sacrament. I am genuinely interested in this aspect of Catholicism. I can’t imagine that the priests or lay leaders who conduct these sessions think that no participants engage in premarital sex. If there’s a mutual acknowledgment of lying, but that lying is about rigid church dogma, isn’t the lying just as reprehensible as the act of, say premarital sex, or “butt sex”, or (GASP) PREMARITAL BUTT SEX (traffic, please!)? Are the priests and the participants are participating in a rouse in the name of church tradition, or are priests just that naive about young people today? (hold your jokes, I’m getting to that)
Of course, then I start thinking about the sex scandal surrounding Catholic priests, and how molestation of children by priests was not only an epidemic, but the church itself made a concerted effort to coverup the abuse allegations, allowing priests to continue to remain working in parishes and abusing children. If you haven’t seen Deliver Us From Evil, the documentary about a particular priest’s case, it’s on Netflix Watch Instantly, and I encourage you to watch it. What struck me about this documentary was the idea of disillusionment. There was an interview with the parents of a child who suffered years of abuse at the hands of a priest who, once the allegations came to light, was simply shuttled from parish to parish, leaving many children in his wake. I had never considered how this type of abuse can emotionally damage all involved, not because the abuse itself is horrific for the families involved (it obviously is) but it damages the fundamental core of these families.
Imagine: you’re a devout Catholic, and your spiritual leader commits a horrific crime against your child. The church, to whom your faith is absolute, to whom you’ve entrusted your entire spiritual destiny, your immortal soul, not only refuses to make things right, but allows the same thing to happen to countless other families without any type of resolution, or explanation, or reparation. This has to completely shatter a person to the very core of what they believe alongside the damage done to a family when a child is abused.
Not all priests are like this. Not by a long shot. And I can’t imagine that parishioners weren’t outraged. So I wonder what kind of dialogue happened between archdioceses, priests, nuns, lay leaders, and parishioners surrounding the sex scandals. Were accountability measures taken? True accountability measures, not just ones to quell dissent? Is there even room in the Catholic church for dissent and subsequent change? And if the answer is no, how and why do devout Catholics continue on as parishioners?
There are still people my age who feel they have to go through the sacraments either because their families insist on it or because they want to save their immortal soul, even if they aren’t really sure they have immortal souls or that Catholicism is the way to save one. When we were planning our wedding, it was never a question whether or not we would be married in the church. I’m not Catholic, and I’m not going to pretend to be one or go through rituals that are meaningless to me for my spouse’s family, and Chris would never ask me to. This was a bone of contention with a (very) few members of Chris’s family. One went so far as to say that she did not view our marriage as valid. But this is just our experience, and I can’t judge others who make different decisions. I just want to know what about Catholicism, with all it’s obvious flaws and faults and hypocrisies, still has a pull on people my age who see through the dogma. As an outsider immersed in a city entrenched in Catholic culture, I can’t help but ask questions about these things.
Is anyone willing to talk about this? I ask that the discussion stay civil in the name of discourse. Of course, kid-touching priests are fair game, but other than those fuckers, let’s keep it respectful.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 8:41 am)
We were married in a Catholic church in Twin Mountain, NH, but did our little class here in Kansas City. Our class was very laid-back and actually quite useful (we did exercises from a book that stressed communication and basically FORCED my husband to talk to me
Also, we did not have to do the whole family planning thing. During the introductions of all the couples, my husband and I were the only ones not already living together and several couples admitted meeting in a bar (and a few met on-line) – seriously, laid-back and I remember a lot of laughing.
I am wondering if the classes you are talking about are a St. Louis thing? From my brief time living there, I seem to remember the St. Louis Catholics being more serious than the Kansas City ones.
Okay, back to your question – at the time I got married, it was important to me that we be married in the Catholic Church because all that gobbledlygook still meant something to me and I wanted to be married to a priest. 7 years later? It does not mean much at all and I would choose a very different venue – say the Cathedral of the Pines in Rindge, NH. Because in the end, all that really mattered to me was that we were married in New Hampshire – a place that is very special to us.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 8:46 am)
Re: getting married in a church even though one doesn’t believe, my first marriage was in a church because I thought my grandparents would be upset if it wasn’t. Then a few years later I found out those same grandparents had run off and gotten married and then kept it a secret for six months.
Yeah. Oops.
Anyway, since then (and in part because of that) I’ve learned that I don’t want to compromise myself just to make someone else comfortable.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 9:08 am)
Here are my thoughts: I see myself as culturally Catholic just as there are people who see themselves as culturally Jewish.
For many of the same reasons:
-I grew up in a family that strongly identified itself with its ethnicity (Irish) because they (great grandparents) had been forced into enclaves of it.
-religious rituals played such a large part of our daily life and our social lives as a family
-It’s hard to turn your back on something your ancestors fought for the right to
Since it was important to my family and the ritual was important to me, we were married in the church. And again we baptized the girls because the ritual for both families was to do so. In a way, I think it was a form of respect for our upbringing.
I’m an atheist and my family knows it but I still attend church with them when I am back in Texas. I don’t take communion and I don’t say the prayers but I stand there with them and greet their friends after Mass.
And I admit that I miss that sense of community, that sense of comfort that comes from sharing something.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 9:23 am)
As Kelli said, I actually found our pre-cana classes helpful. The Engaged Encounter questions made us talk about issues we hadn’t thought of. And of course the fact that ours were in Malibu helped too.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 9:52 am)
As another St. Louisan raised Catholic – who (as you know) was a VERY devout Catholic for a long time – I just have so much I could say about this post! You raise lots of great questions!
I think I will just say, in answer to your final question, that the cultural hold of Roman Catholicism for many people is incredibly strong. I feel like it is more akin to being Jewish than to being, say, Episcopalian or Methodist or something like that. Even if you haven’t believed in the teachings of the Church for years, the CULTURE of BEING Catholic – it is just a huge part of your identity, your past, the “furniture of your life” as it were. Maybe it’s partly because Catholicism is such a developed culture, with its priests and nuns and their special outfits, with its long history of art and music and monasticism and political power, with its system of universities and hospitals, with rosaries and crucifixes, with May Crowning and First Communion and Stations of the Cross and the Catechism and the Pope and on and on. And while in one sense the Catholic Church is diverse, on the other hand, it is the same everywhere in the whole world! It’s a powerful idea, a powerful institution, a powerful force.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 10:29 am)
I guess I didn’t tell you this, but it’s totally related to this. I was scheduled to get the IUD, Mirena a few months ago, at my dr’s office. I called to make the appt and then was told that they aren’t able to administer IUDs anymore because the parent hospital is catholic and refuses the office the right to do their job. They won’t allow extremely effective birth control? So now I’m on a waiting list, and have signed a petition to get an IUD. This may or may not happen. And, my insurance PAYS FOR IT! It’s the most practical form of BC for me, since obviously I’m trying to prevent an unplanned pregnancy. I’m considering switching dr’s just to get it. It’s lunacy.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 11:25 am)
Ladies, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I understand and respect the cultural element of Catholicism. I still want to know more about dissent within the church when situations like child abuse happen. Hell, I want to know more about dissent within the church, period. I know there’s some ass-kicking nuns out there, and those lady priests that the church wants no part of. Are there lay people speaking up?
(On August 17th, 2010 at 12:24 pm)
I was baptized, though not raised, catholic, and have identified as an atheist for more than two decades. I think having a family who is active in the religion has a lot to do with how much pull one feels toward the community. Religion wasn’t enforced or even encouraged at my house, so turning away from what little I got from the church was easy. Given the church’s history of abuse, homophobia, and misogyny, I’d feel like a hypocrite to participate at all.
My parents were married in the church. My mom, who was not catholic at the time, converted. An elderly priest convinced her she must convert, and their future children must be raised catholic or the church could take them away. Granted, this didn’t happen, but she was only nineteen at the time, and this was the late-60s. Right now, no one in my family identifies as catholic anymore. We moved way beyond “lapsed.”
(On August 17th, 2010 at 12:45 pm)
My husband and I were both raised Catholic. He is now obnoxiously atheist while I am indifferently agnostic. We knew from the start that we weren’t going to get married in the church because we felt uncomfortable reciting vows that we didn’t totally believe in.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 1:06 pm)
That’s so interesting… I’ve had a number of friends go thru the pre-Cana classes (born and raised Catholic though I broke with the church long ago) and none of them ever mentioned this natural planning stuff. My impression of the pre-Cana stuff was actually always kind of positive. My friends said their classes always focuses on stuff like how to effectively communicate as a couple and talking about money and if/when to have kids and stuff like that.
My mom’s still very devout and in St. Louis. We get into the occasional heated debate over the Church’s stance on things. I’ve asked her how she can tolerate being affiliated with an organization that basically sponsored and covered up pedophiles, worldwide, for a number of years. She argues that you can’t pick and choose parts of your faith. Yes, she agrees that the child molestation was wrong but for her it’s about faith. She said once that it’s like being an American – you may not agree with everything that the country does but you’re still an American and you love your country. Though she also thinks George W. Bush was the greatest president ever. So…
(On August 17th, 2010 at 2:06 pm)
I suppose I’ll provide a male perspective here…
I was born and raised Catholic by a pair of very Catholic parents. I went to Catholic schools for twelve years, was at mass every single week at least once up until I went to college. And even in college, I still occasionally went to mass the first couple years I was there. And then, when I came home over the summer, I would go back to being a good Catholic boy. It was just easier than having an uncomfortable confrontation with my parents.
Up until a few years ago, my mom still asked me if I went to mass. Actually, she didn’t ask. She proclaimed, “you ARE going to mass,” knowing full well that I wasn’t. She just didn’t want to have that uncomfortable realization that I didn’t do that stuff.
And I think that’s a really good representation of why a lot of people keep going — or at least, that’s the only reason I can think of — it’s easier to just keep going through the motions than it is to have that uncomfortable realization that maybe, just maybe, everything you’ve been raised to believe, is just made-up magic-talk, no more real than the tooth fairy. It’s distressing to put so much stock into a mystical invisible something and then be faced with the realization that maybe, just maybe, it’s invisible because it doesn’t exist at all. And that’s really damn scary.
I mean, sure, there are definitely people out there who actually believe in all that stuff, but I’m convinced that there are just as many, if not more, who subscribe to the dogma because it’s convenient and less scary than thinking that this one life is all we’ve got — there’s no second act.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 2:11 pm)
Oh, and by the way, my family knows that I don’t consider myself Catholic — even though the rest of them are VERY Catholic. My brother says I was brainwashed by the liberals when I went away to college (seriously, he’s said that to me.) One of my sisters lays a guilt trip on me, mostly because she’s afraid of me setting a bad example for her kids (who hate going to mass.) My other sister doesn’t say anything and is pretty respectful of my lack of beliefs. And my mom — well, she and I had a bit of a falling out over it. She cried, kept yelling, “your soul needs food!” and things like that, and even though she will occasionally nag me about it, she mostly keeps quiet, although I’m pretty sure she refuses to accept that I simply don’t believe the same things she does.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 2:23 pm)
It’s somewhat providential that I ran across your post, as I try to keep up with news and blogs related to NFP. I help promote NFP in the Diocese of Peoria, IL.
One point I wanted to make, that vascectomy is NOT a 100% form of pregnancy prevention, though–um–castration is. Not that anyone would do that! (Nor would the Church endorse that, but I digress) I agree and have never really thought about it much but it is a rather hyperbolic scare tactic to say, hey, 1)no sex, 2)removal of ovaries, or 3)removal of testes–yikes!!
I think the point of that part of the talk is to point out effectiveness rates of various birth control methods, of which NFP rates among the best, with a 99.something percent effectiveness and basically matching or better than most hormonal BC out there.
I am fascinated as well why people who do not believe in the Gospel nor worship the Lord Jesus would submit themselves to the authority of the Church in the sacraments, but I would assert that perhaps there’s a supernatural reason. As a non-believer I realize this theory might not appeal, but I truly believe that we are created by God to KNOW Him and love Him, and in our deepest selves we earnestly seek that. So perhaps when these truly meaningful times in our life are before us–marriage, new babies, deaths–we naturally, perhaps inexplicably, turn toward God. Of course if you were blessed enough to be raised Catholic you would go straight to the Church.
I wasn’t raised Catholic, though raised Christian, and a good, goody-two-shoes one! I came to love and embrace the Catholic Church and ALL she stands for after meeting my now-husband (also an adult convert) and his group of vibrant Catholic friends. I’m actually jealous of all of you who were raised Catholic and have that heritage of faith and culture to draw from.
A quick word on NFP: it doesn’t belong to Catholics, but many faithful Catholics have advanced the science of modern NFP. I wish I could tell every woman personally to quit buying the crap handed to us by pharmaceutical companies who are marketing DANGEROUS drugs to women promising freedom from children. As if fertility/children was some disease to be prevented and the alternative of feeling fat, depressed, and having huge risks of deadly blod clots and heart attacks is somehow better? It is just such a crock to me! thanks for listening!!
(On August 17th, 2010 at 2:30 pm)
Natural Family Planning is safe, healthy, and effective. The divorce rate among NFP users is less than 5%. The divorce rate in this country is 50%. They must be doing something right.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 3:00 pm)
Ladies, thanks for your comments. I hope you don’t feel like this is a hostile environment for discussion. That’s not my goal.
I want to reiterate that I’m not against NFP itself. Whatever women want to do to have control over their bodies is their personal choice, and if that choice is NFP and it works for them, good for them. I just want that to be an informed choice based on facts, not dogma.
The real point of my post is to start to understand how Catholics rationalize the shortcomings of the church with their own faith. I am interested in dissent in the church because it seems like (and this is based on outsider perspective, which is why I’m asking) the church presents itself as essentially infallible, which can’t be true, because the church is made of men, and those men are men and are thus fallible (see: kid-touching).
I want to know if and how people challenge those fallacies within their parishes and how they reconcile spiritually (and often, financially) supporting an organization that is capable of egregious sins against humanity.
These questions aren’t unique to Catholicism, at all. I know so many Christians who wrestle with those questions and eventually find their way to denominations that embrace questioning of authority (or abandon organized religion). Jews questioning Judaism is part of their theology.
Leah, while I hate Big Pharma as much as the next person, I have to defend hormonal birth control. While many women do experience side effects, for others (myself included) it changes their lives for the better. I’d gladly take the 5 lbs of weight I gained from the pill over the physical and emotional anguish I suffered while NOT on the pill. It’s not for everyone, but for many women, it’s an informed decision that is best for them.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 3:53 pm)
I’m not even supposed to be reading this. Besides, I was raised by wolves and wolves don’t get all this Catholic stuff. We just howl and prey on the weak.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 4:34 pm)
To all: good read. Question for the Catholics-turned-atheist/agnostic: Did any of you ever entertain the idea of joining a protestant/non-denominational church, or did the Catholic church irreparably turn you off to Christianity altogether? Just curious, thanks.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 6:49 pm)
SK – Turned me off to RELIGION all together. I think the problem with religion, that I learned in many years of Catholicism, is other people. People hide behind religion. They use religion to hate and discriminate. I think that if there is a supreme, s/he/it would want us to think and learn and believe and discover on our own. To love one another and to grow. And I never got any kind of feeling of that in a church. I think Jesus was a pretty cool guy who said a lot of good things that are worth taking to heart, but I don’t think he’s the only path to the divine. That’s just me though.
(On August 17th, 2010 at 9:42 pm)
My parents used to hold those pre-marital classes in our house when I was growing up. I can tell you this, their faith is so strong, they truly believed all of the couples they taught were abstaining from pre-marital sex. I never understood it, but there is something to be said for a belief so deep. I think that’s what our generation is going for in following the church’s traditions almost blindly–i think we’re trying to fill the emptiness inside. In other words, until we find something to believe in, we will go through the motions.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 6:54 am)
KIM I LOVE YOU!!!!
SK- same for me. There are too many people who feel that their ‘belief’ gives them some ‘natural’ right to hate, discriminate, or otherwise dump on others.
I am just so skeptical of ANY religion because I feel it is like a club. If you aren’t in MY club, then you aren’t cool.
I know that’s a juvenile view, but it was very trite, and I mostly feel that way.
My wife and I were married by a judge in a 150 yr old historic church in Wisconsin. The church wasn’t really a church, but more of a historic site. It was also only symbolic, for both my wife and I are VERY Agnostic.
There were those (including her mother) that said our marriage would never last. 12 years later we are strong as ever. We have been married longer than her mother was!
My problem with any church is the “blind faith” aspect. You are indoctrinated very early on to not ask questions, to blindly trust and believe. I think the term I am looking for is GROUP-THINK. Where I come from not asking questions leads to BIG problems, even catastrophe.
I hope I made the point I was hoping to make…I’m not good at these!
(On August 18th, 2010 at 6:58 am)
To fan the flames because religious topics are absolutely fascinating to me…
My mom is a hardcore, practicing, Catholic. Err go, I was raised a hardcore practicing Catholic–or at least that’s what my mom thought until the day I got confirmed and I walked out of the church, turned to her and said, “That was for you. I’m done.” I mention it because she is convinced that I will one day return to the Church even though I have that slight philosophical difference regarding that whole “son of God” shtick.
So when my wife Ellie got pregnant I sat my mom down. I know how much this stuff means to her. She’s an amazing Catholic, and even more amazing woman–and one does not cancel out the other. It’s just her belief system that helps get her through the day. But I had to tell her that we had no intention of baptizing my daughter Quinn. But knowing how much it means to her, I told her that she was welcome to take her to church and do it in my stead, and that if Quinn is ever curious about what Grandma did on Sunday’s, she is more than welcome to take her along as long as Quinn has the choice to believe what she wants. In fact, I even told my mom that if Quinn turns out to actively like church, I will take her every Sunday even though I do not believe in it.
And here’s the rub: According to my mother, a Catholic of 68 years, who wishes mass was still in Latin, Children can not be baptized in a Catholic Church unless their parents are the ones excepting the sacrament for them. So if Ellie and I turned out to be raging serial killers hellbent that what we did was in honor or our dear lord, Satan, our child, helpless and unaware, would be hosed along with us because we weren’t Catholic. I had to gently tell my mom that this was yet another reason why I will never be Catholic.
As an aside, I think everyone has a right to believe whatever the fuck they want as long as it doesn’t harm anyone–even emotionally. Ellie’s brother Ed married a girl whose family is hardcore Born Again. Ed and Ellie’s mom (and really most of Ellie’s family) are outright Atheist. So Ellie’s mom says at an engagement party that Ed’s wife’s parents’ friends from church didn’t like Ellie’s family because “we’re not religious.” I lost my shit and went off on Ellie’s mom about not liking them for “being religious.” That stuff goes both ways. A Darwin Fish is equally offensive as a Jesus Fish and people either need to suck it up and agree to disagree and not be offended, or stop putting that shit out there all the time.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 10:27 am)
SK –
I don’t think being Catholic turned me off of religion so much as the inconsistencies I perceive Christianity to have and the blind faith aspects of it.
As a rule, I don’t believe in blind faith, and this is no different. As such, I had a lot of questions in my CCD and PSR classes growing up and they were generally met with something along the lines of, “because that’s just how it is.” This “that’s just how it is” isn’t like 2+2=4, however, and it has never sat well with me.
More than anything, I’m agnostic, and as I’ve gotten older, I have longed for a certain something in my life that is spiritual without being blind faith oriented. To that end, I have gone to every Unitarian Universalist Church in St. Louis a few times and was, myself, married in Eliot Chapel. My wife, Ellie, and I knew that it would please my mom if the location at least looked as she would expect of a Church.
I have, unfortunately, not quite found what I was looking for at the Unitarian congregations in St. Louis. One is a bit too political for me. One is a bit more God-oriented. And the other simply seems to be in a state of flux as its congregation ages and while it’s the closest to what I was looking for, there were no real peers for me to connect with.
Also, another thing that perplexes me is why church–even ones like Unitarians where everyone gets to believe whatever they want to believe as they are not blind faith oriented–is often kind of lame in that “Our God is an Awesome God” way that’s creepy and uncool in the same way as that kid I asked to stop clapping so loud at the Dave Matthews Concert once that turned around and almost cried “I can’t help it that I love this band!”
Moving on, however, to sort of answer Kelly’s question.
When weird shit happens in the Catholic Church, my mom basically shrugs it off and tries to ignore it. It would appear that the general stance of most Catholics, and as a church when I speak to my mom about it, is to do the same. At a higher level, they seem to not want it to effect membership and, in turn, income. I guess because f they themselves ousted priests, it would make them fallible, and they certainly try to maintain a certain appearance of infallibility.
Then again, maybe if Priests didn’t have to be celibate some of these things wouldn’t be happening in the first place. If there was a study–and I’m not saying there hasn’t been–I would bet you’d find a higher number of these types of cases amongst Catholic priests than you would about, say, Episcopalian ministers. Granted some of that could simply be that there are vastly more of them.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 11:47 am)
So if sex is supposed to be for procreation, how is it NFP and sterilization get the green light? Aren’t they active methods to prevent conception?
They feel like loopholes to me, which contribute to my inability to answer the bigger question of reconciling faith and concerns about the institution.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 2:10 pm)
Ah, Catholicism… such an emotional topic. I was raised in a very strict Catholic family, went to Catholic school for 9 years, and taught in Catholic schools in Missouri and California. My first marriage was in the Catholic church, and though I was a non-churchgoing Catholic after leaving home for college, it was always about the pretense to accommodate my parents. 25 years after that divorce, I actually went through the ridiculous exercise (75 typewritten pages of facts and details of the marriage) of trying to get an annulment. It was denied, simply because I only had 4 of 6 witnesses complete lengthy forms to validate my claims. Keep in mind, I had to find witnesses from 25 years ago! Move forward in time to 30 years after this divorce, I am remarried (outside of the Catholic church) and I was not allowed to take communion in the church, because I was “living in sin”! I recall saying to my father, “So, I cannot take communion because I am married to a man that I love, and yet, priests who have molested children can not only take communion, but they are still saying Mass.” Those are the words that liberated me from the Catholic church, and liberated me from the idea that I could live under a pretense with my parents. As more and more Catholics leave the church, I find it utterly ridiculous that I was shunned and unable to get an annulment. My spirituality remains strong, but my views on organized religion have changed drastically.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 3:58 pm)
I searched for “premarital butt sex” on Google and found this blog.
Not really, but I do want to chime in from the male, Protestant perspective. My problem with is with the underlying intent of the question: creating fear. The question (What can you do to prevent conception?) is obviously intended to get at the issue of abstinence before marriage. However, pondering this question would encourage no one to abstain from sex before marriage except out of fear of conceiving. Is that really why the Catholic Church counsels couples to abstain?
(On August 18th, 2010 at 7:45 pm)
Not only am I a product of a Catholic home and a Catholic eduction spanning 16 years, I come from an EASTERN RITE Catholic home…rooted in Middle Eastern tradition. Not only was our faith based in scripture but also very culturally based. Our social lives revolved around our Church community…founded by immigrants. So, along with the run of the mill Catholic guilt, I carried the knowledge of knowing that my Grandparents came to this country 100 years ago from Lebanon, not only bearing the burden of being Middle Eastern in an Anglo country but being Catholic.
You can count me in the group that was married in the Church to please my ancestors. Simply for the cultural experience. I married a man who has no ties with Catholicism whatsoever and he needed dispensation just to marry me in Church.
On top of that, I even had a second major at my Catholic/Jesuit University in Theology….just trying to grasp why I have spent my life worshiping as a Catholic. And to my surprise, it wasn’t until the Jesuits that I was encouraged to question my faith and not follow blindly. St. Anselm’s work, “Faith Seeking Understanding” has been read, and re-read many times in the this house. Learning, as an adult the reasoning behind my faith has been…and still is an EVER evolving experience.
My family is still very ensconced in the Eastern Rite Catholic Church and I have had the wonderful opportunity to have long, thoughtful and meaningful discussions with my parish priest and bishops. Never being judged, never being persuaded under false pretense or fear. To this day, despite my absence at Sunday Mass, I still have strong relationships with my parish priest and our Bishop. Toss in over 10 years of trauma/critical care nursing and seeing humans at our very worst and most delicate (and witnessing a miracle or two)… I have an extremely strong opinion of life, death, religion and God. But after all is said and done…no one, and I mean NO ONE can dictate how I choose to procreate or not to. And from a health professional point of view there is only ONE surefire way to prevent pregnancy…and that is…butt sex.
Seriously…anytime you have sexual intercourse whether using NFP, oral BC pills, IUDs or condoms…there is a risk of conception. Nothing is 100% except celibacy when we get down to it and to be honest there is no fun in that.
(On August 18th, 2010 at 8:30 pm)
Firstly, to be very clear, if butt sex would have been given as an option for preventing children to me by the Catholic Church, I might still be a member
Where to start?
I was born and raised Catholic-grade school and high school. My mother also drug us around to the various nondenominational places –Life Christian (Pastor Rick Shelton), Crazy Joyce Meyer ministries…ugh. Told my mom the whole time that I hated it, wanted nothing to do with it. Yet, she felt it was in my best interest to put me through it and I lived under her roof. What a waste of time it was.
(Strange side note; my religion teacher in grade school backhanded me in the face during class. My crime? Writing on the chalkboard I was sitting next to, while he talked. Needless to say, he still works there and still has one coming. How is hitting an 8th grader even an option for a religion teacher? Sad human he is.)
I have since had the sit down with her and told her how upset I was at her wasting my time. I said, if this spiritual thing is so special, so personal, then shouldn’t it be something that I WANT to do, and not be forced upon me? BUT this is how the church, the man made church perpetuates itself–INDOCRINATION OF THE YOUTH! Think about it. It’s the only way to get otherwise seemingly intelligent people to buy into this crap (talking snake theory anyone?), this hope in a bottle. Force feed it to them while they are young, make it a part of who they are from the beginning and it makes it harder for them to cut their ties to it. Who wants to admit they’ve been duped—for 20+ years? But now, thanks in no small part to the internet and lots of juicy child molestation cases, things are changing. People are stepping away. Although, I do know people who still find it hard to do so, mostly the fear of their parents being pissy about it. It’s crazy to me, that someone would go thru the motions, just to appease their parents/relatives. But man, there’s a lot of them out there. And I guess to a certain degree I get it but also think its more important to be who you are. Stand up for your damn self. Think for yourself. Two things the church doesn’t support. Remember, gosh darn it, people like you
Faith makes a virtue out of not thinking. And the bible has got all the answers you need.
Case in point…I asked my mom if she thought gay marriage should be allowed? Her basic answer: The bible says no, and I support that. So, I said, what if your best friend was gay, wouldn’t you want him/her to be as happy as you, and be able to share in the love pact called marriage? Uhhhh, she kinda stumbled, I don’t know. The book says no way, so I have to go with that. Really? You’re gonna let some few thousand year old book of fairy tales be your guide on present day issues like this? Think for yourself god damnit.
I also told her, you know if you had been born in Pakistan, you’d probably be Muslim and hate the bible
Then I told her that if I walked around talking about my imaginary friend , she would think I was crazy and have me locked up. BUT you call your friend god, jesus or allah and people give you a pass. I think they are the ones that need the help. They are the crazy/weak/irrational ones! All this crazy talk about answering prayers.?.?. That shit doesn’t work. Just ask any amputee. Wishing really hard is what I call it. Aka, a waste of time.
Oh yeah, the topic
I think there is some dissent in/to the church but not a lot, mostly because of the start’em young youth factor and this is their FAITH man, it can’t be wrong or bad, right? The view is that their leaders are blindly infallible. Which is just mind blowing that an organization as big and widely known as the church, who has perpetrated so many crimes against children and humanity, is even still around or hasn’t suffered more outrage against them. Or even more so, that the folks are still ok with being associated to them!!! How is that possible? They effectively created an architecture that allowed the systemic abuse of children to go on for ages and yet they still get a pass by their devoted members. Unreal. And. Sad.
I think religion in general is the scourge of our existence. It’s a fear based ideology(s) that serves only to perpetually dumb down and control a flock of people. That being said, I don’t know if there is a “supreme being” or not. Like Bill M, I’m on the corner with doubt on that one. I do believe, if there is though, he/she/it wouldn’t approve of the Ponzi scheme that is most religions, not too mention the discriminatory tactics they employ. It’s like the lotto, you cant get saved if you don’t play! Old Bernie Madoff has nothing on the Catholic Church. Buddhism might be the only one that doesn’t require financial obligations or belief in a space god to reach nirvana…just work on making yourself a better human–I get that.
Religion is a violent disrespect of reason.
I also find it incredibly ironic that any Christian supports a policy/president that kills other people for their own gain. So much for kindness and do one to others…well, when its convenient …..and yet, (generalizing a bit here) lots of Republicans claim to be Christian. How can you say/believe “Thou shalt not kill”, and then send your army to go wack a quarter million Iraqis?
The ironing is contagious.
Man, o man, I could go on….here’s a couple favorite quotes of mine for you to chew on:
“If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you’d resign in protest.” Bill Maher
“If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine – but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you’ve been bad or good – and cares about any of it –to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working” Frank Zappa, 1989.
“I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative. I think religion is a neurological disorder.“ Bill Maher
(On August 18th, 2010 at 10:27 pm)
I was raised as a Catholic, I stopped being a Catholic when I was in 8th grade. That was the year we were supposed to go thru confirmation in the church – I went to PSR (religion classes) for years as a kid and this is what they taught us. However, when I reached that age I started asking more questions in PSR class and the nun couldn’t answer them. I kept asking and they kept getting annoyed. Finally a few weeks before the confirmation ceremony I said I’m not doing it – I don’t understand and no one can answer these questions and if this is all about me understanding and being an adult that has to happen before I make such a big commitment. Now to me, that sounded like the right decision but my mom was furious, the nun was furious, and the priest was furious. What the? I wandered aimlessly thru various religious teachings after that and have finally ended up to agnostic I guess. I find it very hard to understand how so many Catholics I know can be a part of this organized cult (hey that is what religions are to me) if they disagree with so much of it.
(On August 19th, 2010 at 10:51 am)
[...] you to everyone who commented on my questioning Catholicism post. For the most part, things stayed respectful and I appreciate everyone who shared their [...]
(On August 25th, 2010 at 3:08 pm)
Well, on a related note, after I divorced my Catholic husband (I’m jack-Catholic) of seven years, he called me up to see if I’d agree to have our marriage annulled so he could get married in the Catholic church again.
Yeah, no reinventing history, dude.
I have little tolerance for such arbitrary religious antics.
(On September 3rd, 2010 at 12:33 am)
@Fragrant Liar: “I have little tolerance for such arbitrary religious antics.”
That pretty much sums it up.
My problem with religion in general (I’m a reformed Catholic) is that it pretends to be helpful by trying to explain everything. Like if there’s a terrible accident and one person lives (“God must have bigger plans for his life”) and one person dies (“Everything happens for a reason”). And you can pray, but don’t pray for something specific, because god doesn’t answer prayer like that. It’s not for us to question his methods. It’s such crap. I feel so much better just knowing there’s no rhyme or reason to anything. That my mom got cancer and died not because god wanted to test her and my family and then call her home. But because she just got cancer and died! The funny thing is that I’m sure religious people would feel sorry for me because I didn’t have my “faith” to lean on during a difficult time, but for me, it was so much easier to just say, “It is what it is.” I think getting stuck in a convoluted religion with a bunch of arbitrary rules set by a moody, enigmatic deity is a lot harder to cope with.
And interestingly, I seem to pick up a lot of Christian readers. My husband calls my “Christian cocaine” — he says they like reading me because I talk about actual feelings instead of just saying things like, “God will provide.”